by Richard
Welcome to our first traditional Kinktober post. Jayden and I divvied up the list, so you should be getting at least one post from each day. I tend to write fairly short pieces for Kinktober, so I’ll be doubling up some nights so we can finish by the end of the month. Enjoy tonight’s Degradation and Dirty Talk/Elevator sex prompts!
Continue reading
We’re back for a 7th month of The Insecure Writer’s Support Group, and we’re right on time!
If you’d like to chime in and let us know your answers to the questions or drop a link to your post if you’re participating, please do so in the comments! And check out the IWSG website for more answers!
October 6 question – In your writing, where do you draw the line, with either topics or language?
Continue readingComment below if you’re playing along!
1. I’m so jealous, I wish I was _____ .
Jayden: Independently wealthy.
Richard: able to take a nap in the shower.
2. When would you seek help from a sex therapist?
Jayden: If the sex weren’t good and everything else was. Or if the sex doesn’t stay good. (I don’t see that happening, but you never know.)
Richard: Sure, we already go to a couple’s therapist.
3. How do you break up with a friend?
Jayden: The same way you break up with a partner, I suppose. I guess I haven’t really had to do a lot of that. I just let things fade. If I don’t pursue the friendship and neither do they, then I guess that’s the answer…
Richard: I don’t think I ever have. I’ve stopped being friends with people, but I don’t remember ever having a specific conversation about it.
4. Give us a tip to turn a bad day around.
Jayden: I like to listen to some upbeat music. That can often put me in a better headspace.
Richard: Go for a walk.
Bonus: Do you feel drowned by social media?
Jayden: Yes. There’s so much of it. It’s impossible to keep up with everything, and I hate to miss what’s going on in my friends’ lives, but I can’t possibly read everyone’s posts.
Richard: Not really. The only one I really use is FB, and I have few enough friends that I can get through most of their posts in like 10 minutes a day.
by guest artist GS
Kinktober day 2: Crossdressing. I get the sense that, even in a world teeming with toxic masculinity, Maurice wouldn’t be averse to playing at being a girl. Cathy would happily switch genders – she’s into performance arts, and she’s not very attached to her own identity. I wouldn’t say she’s nonbinary; more like… flexible. I thought it would be fun to emphasize the clothes here as they let their regular identities fade into the background.
by guest artist GS
Kinktober day 1. Prompt: train molester. Cathy molests her own husband on a train. Is she creepy? Maybe. Maybe she just needed something to hold onto and the ceiling straps were out of reach.
We’re continuing answering the questions from our list. Check last time’s if you missed them!
How socially connected is your submission? Do you look for others to talk to about your submission for support or networking? Do you go to events or connect through another sort of social grouping either in person or online?
Richard: I have a fair number of D/s friends (and a few mostly vanilla ones that I talk kink with.) I’ve used a variety of kink and kink-adjacent websites, chat rooms etc., and have made some lasting friends there. I’ve been to munches, etc. in the past, and would like to start going again.
Jayden: And hey, we did that! We went to one munch so far in our local area, and we’ll probably go to more. I am excited because I have now met another submissive who I have formed a good friendship with. It’s so, so nice to be able to talk about kinky things and not have people look at you strangely. When you say things like, “He choked me last and it was so fucking hot!” or “Look at this bruise!” We were just remarking the other day at a dinner party that it was fun to be at a dinner party where it was totally acceptable for me to whip out my chest to show off a bruise.
In general, my submission had a behind-closed-doors feel to it, but I am really glad to say that that is no longer the case. I am excited to be more social about it and connect with other kinky people.
Is there a physical position that makes you feel most submissive?
Richard: Being tied up makes me squirmy and bratty.
Jayden: Kneeling is generally a good one. Anything that puts me physically below my Dom (though I’m short, so that’s most of the time anyway). And, as Richard said, tie me up!
How socially connected is your dominance? Do you look for others to talk to about your dominance for support or networking? Do you go to events or connect through another sort of social grouping either in person or online?
Richard: It comes and goes. I like to have kinky friends to talk about these sorts of things with. I have a handful of good friends who are generally involved in kink, so I usually have at least a few to talk to. One of our friends recently got involved in a new relationship that’s significantly kinkier than most of his prior ones, so it’s nice to talk to him and his new partner about it. I don’t really like to go to kink events solo, but if I have a partner it’s fun to go out. More rarely I’ll go with a friend.
Jayden: I haven’t been dominant enough to have any kind of support or networking. I guess you could say that for a brief time, I was being dominant in text with a sub and Richard was coaching me through it. That was definitely helpful.
Is there a physical position that makes you feel most dominant?
Richard: Putting my sub in a face down-ass up position is good. And of course, you can’t beat having someone kneeling at your feet.
Jayden: (For the record, I didn’t read Richard’s dominant responses before I wrote my own submissive ones. Yeah, we’re on the same page almost all the time…) As a Domme, having someone kneel at my feet, especially someone who is usually taller than me is hot. I like it when they have that pleading look in their eye. It makes me feel powerful.
Hello! We have a brand new feature for this year’s Kinktober! A friend of mine was looking for somewhere to share their kinky art, and I offered to host it here on my blog. We’ll keep going with some of our regular posts (TMI Tuesday and Eventually Ever After) and you should get some Kinktober posts from Richard and I as well. So buckle up! After being sporadic with our posts in September, we’ll be making multiple posts some days!
~Jayden
I’m GS and I make a webcomic called Alien Romance. It’s about two people – Maurice and Cathy – with almost nothing in common, not even a language, who decide to make a go of it. This Kinktober, I’m letting my characters explore their sexual options, mostly with each other, although there are some supporting characters who may also appear.
Usually my scenes are 1-5 full pages long, but this time I plan to do just one or two panels per prompt, and they will be cute.
But please note that my characters are in their mid-20’s. They look a lot younger, but that’s on purpose. I’ve lived for three years in Vietnam, and 4 years in China, and the men here run the gamut from sweet femme bois to hardened bodybuilders. But they are very rarely large people – most of them, by Western standards, are quite diminutive. Immigrants may arrive from these areas and discover that they can’t compete with the social standards of physical appearance in their new communities. In fact, the idea that East Asian men have racial features that are not sexually appealing enough is an ugly trope.
Maurice is a Vietnamese American who grew up in the homogeneous heartland. Cathy is French, and should have enjoyed a life of privilege, but some invisible disabilities and serendipitous misfortunes have landed her in the United States. It’s a story celebrating nonstandard beauty, reclaiming your desirability when it’s been taken away from you, and the joys of being an alien.
by Jayden
Click here to go back to the beginning of Eventually Ever After.
We spent the next week trying to figure out what the hell we were going to do about everything. We were developing feelings for each other, and now that we had acknowledged that, they were moving quickly. But we hadn’t had sex yet. And that was driving me crazy.
One of the days Richard came over to my house, he said, “You know, I think we should wait until after Thanksgiving to have sex.”
I wanted to be okay with it, but… He whispered to me so that no one else could hear, “You aren’t used to being told no, are you?”
I shook my head. I wasn’t. I generally got what I wanted, and I liked it that way. Richard was going to be an interesting challenge.
Continue readingComment below if you’re playing along!
Who is playing TMI Tuesday this week? Write, post, read.
1. What is the most expensive thing you have purchased that was not worth the price?
Jayden: My car. UGH. I just put over $3000 into it and it’s not even worth that much.
Richard: Vacations to Disney. Thousands of dollars to stand in line, and experience the worst customer service in the world.
2. Has money ever ruined a relationship for you?
Jayden: Nope. I’ve always been open about finances and I don’t like to “keep score.”
Richard: It has not.
3. What is a cheap thing you own that just makes you SO happy?
Jayden: My laminator!
Richard: My Swiss Army Knife. The little ones cost like $15 and I use it every day.
4. What is the most toxic quality about you?
Jayden: I can be kind of jealous…
Richard: Pushing people away when I’m mad at myself.
5. Why do you not like to talk about money?
Jayden: I don’t mind talking about money.
Richard: Long standing societal taboos designed to maintain the patriarchy/bourgeoisie.
Bonus: What is the craziest thing you have done for love?
Jayden: Uhh. I have no idea. Moved in with someone I hadn’t been dating long?
Richard: I flew to Minnesota to see someone I never met once. They totally could’ve just wanted my skin for their skin suit.
Comment below if you’re playing along!
You know what to do…it’s TMI Tuesday!
1. Tell us about the 3 most enjoyable moments in your life.
Jayden: I don’t even know how to answer this question. I feel like it’s a trick. I’m supposed to say things like, “They day my daughter was born,”. But that was a terrrrrible day. So, whatever. I have had many times in my life that I couldn’t believe how lucky I was, and some of those moments are recent. But that’s all you get because ‘enjoyable’ is so relative.
2. What was your most enjoyable moment in 2020?
Jayden: Meeting Richard, not the moment we met specifically, but the connection we formed over time. It wasn’t what I expected, but it worked out in the end.
3. Would you rather have the ability to see 10 minutes into the future or 10 years into the future?
Jayden: 10 years. I’m such a planner, and I am constantly worried that I’m not doing the right thing for my future. (Also, 10 years ago me *would not* believe what I’m doing right now. Hell, one year ago me wouldn’t have believed it.
4. Would you rather find true love today or win the lottery next year?
Jayden: Win the lottery next year. I already found true love. 😛 But if I hadn’t found love, I’d pick love over lottery any day.
5. What pursuits bring you the most joy?
Jayden: Doing things for others. [Insert pithy joke about being a submissive.]
Bonus: Who can you help today?
Jayden: I help so many people every day. It’s part of my job. So, this evening, I’m helping myself and my family to get more settled into our home.
We’re continuing answering the questions from our list. Check last week’s if you missed them!
What does trust mean to you in the context of submission?
Richard: Trusting my Dominant to set up a scene that we can both enjoy, be safe, etc.
Jayden: Being able to let go and trust in my Dominant is most of what makes it alluring to me. Knowing that he (or she) will take care of me, push me right to the edge, and be there to hold me when it’s over is the deepest trust.
Very often the stereotype of submission is that the submissive person loses the ability to have an opinion. While that clearly isn’t true except in the absolute rarest of occasions, how does communication factor into your submission and how do you communicate your desires and needs?
Richard: I’m a very chatty sub, I think it’s nervous energy. I’m perfectly willing to beg and whine for what I want/need. If I don’t get it, sometimes I switch back into Dom space and take it anyway.
Jayden: When I get into that submissive headspace, I find it very hard to have an opinion. I just want to please my Dom. I don’t care about anything else. I get off on his pleasure. So it’s hard to express anything for me. If I need to, I will. And often Richard asks what I want. Usually my answer is something along the lines of, “Whatever you want, Sir.” And I mean that. 100%.
What does trust mean to you in the context of domination?
Richard: That I’ll take care of my submissive and make sure they’re safe, limits are respected, that sort of thing.
Jayden: Having someone put their trust in me to protect them and respect their limits in a kinky scene is a lot of responsibility. It’s also the reason I am not great at taking on long-term submissives.
Very often the stereotype of dominance is that the dominant person gets anything they want, without regard for the sub. While that clearly isn’t true except in the absolute rarest of occasions, how does communication factor into your dominance and how do you communicate with your sub?
Richard: Jayden and I both like doing questionnaires, checklists, etc. so we’ve done quite a few of those to help get a feel for where we both feel on certain kinks. We try to pick a few kinks, questions, etc. and talk about them when we go for a walk, drive, etc. Sometimes, we both write out our answers ahead of time and swap them to help make sure we’re giving an honest one.
Jayden: As a Domme, I love the questionnaires and checklists Richard mentioned. And although I like being dominant from time to time, I’m usually doing it to fulfil someone else’s desires. That’s the core of all of my kink. So finding out what they are interested in ahead of time is crucial for me.
1. In what way is creativity just like sex?
Jayden: Sex and creativity look different for everyone, and sometimes they go hand in hand. Sex that’s the same every time gets boring.
Richard: They both require you to make yourself vulnerable and show a part of yourself that you don’t normally.
2. What important successes have you had in life that people just don’t know about?
Jayden: A lot of people don’t know that I’ve written many novels and published four of them.
Richard: None
3. What do you like more being a leader or a follower?
Jayden: I’m a terrible follower. I end up being a leader even when I don’t want to be.
Richard: Leader.
4. If you could send a message to an alien species, what would it be?
Jayden: Save us from ourselves!
Richard: Probe me!
5. Have you ever been happy that you lied?
Jayden: I don’t particularly like lying, but there’s one situation I can think of that worked out for me.
Richard: All the time.
Bonus: What can you do that no one else can?
Jayden: I don’t know that I’m that special.
Richard: I can swallow my tongue.
Comment below if you’re playing along!
We’re back for a sixth month of The Insecure Writer’s Support Group, and we’re a little late. We had a great run of daily posts, but…all good things must come to an end. But don’t worry. We aren’t going away, and we’ll be resuming regular posts this week, but every day just might not be possible. Life, you know?
If you’d like to chime in and let us know your answers to the questions or drop a link to your post if you’re participating, please do so in the comments! And check out the IWSG website for more answers!
September 1st: How do you define success as a writer? Is it holding your book in your hand? Having a short story published? Making a certain amount of income from your writing?
Continue readingWe’re a little bit late with our post for today, and it’s not a continuation of our previous Sunday story. So to make up for it, you get this fun standalone piece Richard wrote for Kinktober. The prompt was human furniture, and I think he takes a fun and sexy take on it. Enjoy!
“Welcome to SUBKEA. What can we get for you today?” the salessub asked. He had a ballgag dangling around his neck. You could tell he really wanted to put it on, but that’s how working retail is–can’t dress how you want. The rest of his outfit was black leather (spill-resistant, I would later learn) save for the glass tabletop on his back.
“We’re looking for a new chair,” I said, nodding towards you. “This one is getting a little worn out.”
It was true; your upholstery was worn through on your ass. “And I want to treat her to something nice for our anniversary.”
“Aww, congratulations!” he said, “Did you want to stick with the fabric or switch to leather?”
“You can pick, sweetie. It’s your present after all.”
“What do you recommend?” you asked him. “I want to be nice and cozy. I’m helping him decorate a new reading nook for his present.”
It was a good thing he didn’t have the ballgag in; I’m pretty sure he threw up in his mouth a little.
“Oh, definitely leather then. We can set it up like a cute little study. Do you smoke?” he asked me. “We’ve got some great new stuff that you can put a cigar out on and barely mark it up at all.”
“I don’t,” I said. “But I could definitely start.”
“Mmm, let’s get you a tweed jacket. You can be my professor anytime, Daddy.” My chair wrapped her arms around mine, looking up and winking at me. The salesub lead us towards the back of the store. I got a sharp elbow to the ribs, followed by a little pout when I looked at a pair of chubby subs for a little too long, their Master and Mistress able to use them together as a love seat.
“So, this is our best-seller, DEVOTION. It comes in two pieces, like most of our armchairs. The frame is oak, good and solid, ergonomically designed to put minimal pressure on the sub, just enough to give you that safe feeling. We start with a frame size, you’re probably a medium, and then custom cut it to you.”
Continue readingby Jayden
After our kiss, okay, several kisses, we got back to work. At least, for a little while.
“May I please go pee, Sir?” I asked. I had been asking him for permission to pee for… I don’t know how long. A few weeks, I think. It was another thing with us that I don’t know how it happened, but it did. I suppose it was probably in response to some kind of fiction I wrote and a text conversation we had. Nick wasn’t into water sports, so I had no one to play with, and Richard was. Richard was happy to give me permission (or not) to pee. It was hot.
“You may,” he said.
I groaned.
“What’s wrong?”
“My pants are soaked through,” I said. “Putting them back on is going to be gross.”
“Do you want another pair of pants?” he asked.
“Oh, maybe,” I said.
“You can let yours dry out before you have to go. Let me see what I have.”
He rummaged around in his drawers and came up with a pair of pants that had Batman logos on them. I went into the bathroom, did my thing, and put them on. There was no full-length mirror in there, but I put them on and looked down, and all I could think was that they made my thighs look massive.
I was very insecure about my body. I rarely, if ever, felt attractive. One of my biggest concerns with meeting Richard the way I had was that he hadn’t really seen me in person much. What if he didn’t like the way I looked when he saw me naked? What if he didn’t like my thighs and ass?
I almost took the pants off and put my wet ones back on, but then I decided…fuck it. He hadn’t seen me naked yet, but if he didn’t like me in the pants, he definitely wasn’t going to like me naked.
Continue readingWe came across this set of questions that we thought we would answer for you in the absence of the Erotic Journal Challenge. Though, for us, this set of questions was very tame, haha. But here are my answers, and next week, Richard will answer them! Feel free to play along and answer the questions in a comment or drop the link to your blog where you answered the questions!
1. Have you ever had sex in three or more positions in one session?
Oh yeah, absolutely. Fun times. 🙂
2. Have you ever had sex continuously for 1 hour or more?
Intercourse? I don’t think so. But a sexual scene, absolutely.
3. Have you ever devoted an entire day to sex and sexual activity (with breaks for eating, etc)?
Yes! Richard and I did that just recently, in fact.
4. Have you ever been so loud having sex that housemates/neighbors commented or complained?
Yeah, I’ve been heard before. I can get quite loud.
5. Have you ever had your sexual technique/style/skill openly praised by someone?
Yes. I like getting compliments. I work hard for them.
6. Have you ever written an explicitly erotic story?
I don’t know… have I?
Continue readingRichard here! Welcome to the start of our next series. Way back in December, Jayden and I decided to try to write and swap some CNC (consensual non-consent) stories. For the next week or two, we’ll be looking at my entry from the “force” category, where the Dom physically overpowers the sub.
This week’s is fairly light, but TW for CNC just to be safe.
I looked at my watch. NO DEVICE FOUND showed on the home screen. My phone was with Neil in the waiting room. I was still connected to the resort’s wifi, and I swiped over to their app. Two minutes until my run started, I was in the red group. So was Mark. Please, god, let it be Mark. I hadn’t seen him all day. For once in his life, the bastard had said we’d play a game honestly and refused to coordinate ahead of time. I had no clue what he’d been doing. Doing other runs with other subs? Mapping out the grounds? Sitting in the pool with a mai-tai?
Continue readingWe thought that we would take an opportunity on Wednesdays to share what’s good in our lives and welcome you to share what’s good in your lives! Please comment below and let us know what’s good! Feel free to be vague or specific. We’re just happy to share good things!
Jayden: We got a couch! It’s very comfy, we didn’t have to put it together, and it comes with storage!
Richard has also been making me lots of delicious food this week since he isn’t working. He keeps telling me that he would make a great stay-at-home-husband, if only I made enough $$$!
Richard: I’m available if anyone is looking for a kept man. Besides being Jayden’s Master, I’m also the snack master. I promise I make stuff without eggs too, she just doesn’t take pictures of them.
There was no new TMI Tuesday this week, so we’re throwing back to August 28th, 2012.
1. Have you ever initiated a booty call?
Jayden: I have, but not in a very long time.
Richard: Yes, a fair number of times. Mostly with an ex in college.
2. Have you ever accepted a booty call?
Jayden: Also yes, but not in a very long time. Probably when I was in college.
Richard: Yes, a smaller number of times. Mostly with the same ex.
3. Ever had a “friend with benefits” relationship? How long did it last? Are you still friends or acquaintances with that person? Are you still having sex with that friend?
Jayden: Yes I did, one in particular that lasted a full summer. We ended up reconnecting primarily as friends, but occasionally we play a little online.
Richard: Yes, several. I’m not friends with the majority of them anymore, mostly just from standard drifting apart over time, not any particular drama. I am not currently having sex with any of them.
4. Tell us about your best one-night stand, what made it so good?
Jayden: This is boring, but I don’t think I’ve ever had a one-night stand. It sounds sexy and exciting and a great fantasy, but I don’t trust people enough to do a one-night stand. I have had some really terrible dates that only went one night, but they were meant to be dates.
Richard: I don’t know that I’ve ever really had a one night stand. I think the woman I hooked up with the fewest times was still two or three. I guess there might be a few that were “supposed” to be one night stands that turned into FWB, etc.
The first time I got back with the above ex was pretty hot. We weren’t really on great terms, so you had that great ex-sex/hate-fuck energy, and we did all the more intense kinks that we only occasionally did when we were together. I think that was my first “large scale” water sports scene.
5. When was your last one-night stand?
Jayden: I don’t remember. It’s been more than a decade since one of those failed relationships.
Richard: If we’re using a flexible definition: about a decade, at or shortly after college. More strictly? Never.
6. What’s the grimiest, dirtiest place that you’ve had sex?
Jayden: Hmm, I don’t know. The bridge over a highway wasn’t very clean. I have no idea how clean the porch floor was that Richard fucked me on. (God that was HOT!)
Richard: Bottom of the stair well in my dorm. It was the only place without any people or security cameras.
Bonus: What’s the one random thing you wish your friends knew about you?
Jayden: I wish all of my friends knew that I was kinky. A lot of them do, and I’m starting to really surround myself with people I can tell, but there are others that don’t know, and I wish I could tell them.
Richard: I can swallow my tongue.
Comment below if you’re playing along!
We’re continuing answering the questions from our list. Check last week’s if you missed them!
Do you include financial submission within the definition of your own submission and if yes, how does it manifest itself? If no, is there a particular reason why? Are you familiar with the concepts of financial submission? Do you have an opinion about financial submission in general?
Richard: I do not. No Dom I’ve been with has ever asked for it, and I don’t think I’m particularly interested in doing it anyway. In general, I think it’s a rather dangerous kink, though obviously not in the traditional way. Realistically, a lot of relationships already have financial dynamics that may or may not be sexual. If it’s okay to pay for sex, or to rely on your partner financially, I don’t think making a kink out of it necessarily does any harm.
Jayden: I haven’t, and I don’t think I would. I don’t have a lot of extra money, so I don’t know how it would be helpful. And, as much as I enjoy depending on my Dom for lots of things, finances isn’t one of them. I like knowing that I can stand on my own and take care of myself.
Is sexual availability, being available to your partner any time he or she wants, part of your submission? Why or why not? Are there limits to this?
Richard: It’s not, but I think I could enjoy it. Because I only sub sporadically and for short time periods, it doesn’t really come up. I’d be interested in it. I think it’d be fun, and I have a bit of an exhibitionist streak, which could play into it. Don’t get me fired. That’s definitely a limit.
Jayden: Yes, absolutely. In fact, the more I feel like he’s using me for his pleasure, the more I like it.
Does religion have any bearing on your decision to submit? If not, are you familiar with religious based submission and do you view it as similar to other types of submission or dissimilar?
Richard: It doesn’t. My religious background is pretty sex-negative. I do have a Domme friend who does some religious play, and it’s never really interested me. Overall, I’d say more similar than non, it’s just another “flavor.”
Jayden: Nope. It’s just not a thing for me. I do like that Richard calls me goddess sometimes (note the lowercase g!) but that’s not based in religion. I don’t think I’ve ever known anyone who had that particular kink, but as Richard said, it’s similar to other types of kink, especially ‘taboo’ ones.
Do you include financial domination within the definition of your own dominance and if yes, how does it manifest itself? If no, is there a particular reason why? Are you familiar with the concepts of financial domination? Do you have an opinion about financial domination in general?
Richard: I’d love to have a pay pig, sugar daddy/mommy slut, whatever. Who doesn’t want some extra spending money, or someone to buy me fun toys (which I can then use on other subs for extra fun)? Jayden and I sort of played around with this before we left her other partner. Another partner I had had a toy that an ex Dom had bought for her, that she “wasn’t supposed” to use with anyone else. That added a fun little twist to using it. I’m more comfortable doing fin Dom as a Dom than as a sub.
Jayden: As a Domme, I’m not sure I could do it. It sounds fun, and like Richard said, it would be fun to have a little extra from time to time, but I think I would feel bad about it.
Is sexual availability, being available to your partner any time he or she wants, part of your dominance? Why or why not? Are there limits to this?
Richard: For me, some degree of availability or free use is a basic part of sexual submission. For Jayden, this is more or less literally true, I can do what I want, when I want, no questions asked. For other subs, this was more of a role play affectations. Generally, I try to be flexible about using it in compromising or public situations, though they’re also one of my favorite times to use it. As I remind Jayden, “what’s the point of having a slave if you have to ask?”
Jayden: I think it is to an extent, but as Richard said with submission, I’m mostly a sub, so as a Domme, I don’t know if it works quite the same way. That being said, if I want my sub, I want them on my time.
Does religion have any bearing on your decision to dominate? If not, are you familiar with religious based dominance and do you view it as similar to other types of dominance or dissimilar?
Richard: I’ve done some religious play with some subs, but it’s not one of my primary dynamics. Jayden calls me the God of Rape sometimes. If it’s literally religious based, as opposed to just a roleplay scenario or something, it sounds pretty ripe for abuse.
Jayden: Nope, not at all. I’ve never even attempted it, and I don’t know that I would. It’s one thing to be (as Richard said) the God or Goddess of something, but I don’t think that’s exactly what we’re talking about here.
J R Vincente 
